I know there are lots of people that do not like Ubuntu due to the controversies of Snaps, Canonicals head scratching decisions and their ditching of Unity.
However my experience using Ubuntu when I first used it wasn’t that bad, sure the snaps could take a bit or two to boot up but that’s a first time thing.
I’ve even put it on my younger brothers laptop for his school and college use as he just didn’t like the updates from Windows taking away his work and so far he’s been having a good time with using this distro.
I guess what I’m tryna say is that Ubuntu is kind of the “Windows” of the Linux world, yes it’s decisions aren’t always the best, but at least it has MUCH lenient requirements and no dumb features from Windows 11 especially forced auto updates.
What are your thoughts and experiences using Ubuntu? I get there is Mint and Fedora, but how common Ubuntu is used, it seemed like a good idea for my bros study work as a “non interfering” idea.
Your thoughts?
I think Ubuntu made sense back in the day when Debian wasn’t as user-friendly.
Now that Debian is, it looks like Ubuntu is trying really hard to just be as commercialized as possible.
I still don’t understand the logic behind their paying for updates for certain programs when Debian doesn’t require it.
I think Ubuntu made sense back in the day when Debian wasn’t as user-friendly.
This is a very good point.
When Ubuntu launched, it was a big moment for linux. Before then, setting up a linux GUI was a lot of pain (remember setting modelines for individual monitors and the endless fiddling that took - and forget about multiple monitors). Ubuntu made GUI easy - it just worked out of the box for most people. It jumped Linux forwards as a desktop a huge way and adoption grew a lot. They also physically posted you a set of CDs or a DVD for free! And they did a bunch of stuff for educational usage, and getting computers across Africa.
That was all pretty amazing at the time and all very positive.
But then everyone else caught up with the usability and they turned into a corporate entity. Somewhere along the way they stopped listening to their users, or at least the users felt they had no voice, and a lot more linux distros appeared.
I used to like Ubuntu, but I got so sick for not being able to do things due to packages being out of date, and/or snaps getting in the way.
I ditched it for arch and I’m so much happier
Canonical lives and dies by the BDFL model. It allowed them to do some great work early on in popularizing Linux with lots of polish. Canonical still does good work when forced to externally, like contributing upstream. The model falters when they have their own sandbox to play in, because the BDFL model means that any internal feedback like “actually this kind of sucks” just gets brushed aside. It doesn’t help that the BDFL in this case is the CEO, founder, and funder of the company and paying everyone working there. People generally don’t like to risk their job to say the emperor has no clothes and all that, it’s easier to just shrug your shoulders and let the internet do that for you.
Here are good examples of when the internal feedback failed and the whole internet had to chime in and say that the hiring process did indeed suck:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31426558
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37059857
“markshuttle” in those threads is the owner/founder/CEO.
For me, Mint offers everything good about Ubuntu without any of the bad.
That being said, I don’t hate it, but I also don’t recommend it ever to people. The pitfalls that can come up from Snaps, plus the default layout of Gnome, are reasons why a brand new Linux user might struggle with it unless they are already somewhat of a techie.
For ex-windows users like my parents who aren’t tech savvy, I just install Mint, set up their shortcuts and desktop icons, and away they go, happy little penguins.
I love how you spelled Penguin with a q, can we Call it Linuqs too?
lol, fixed it now :P
I still run ubuntu on my main work desktop and will likely do so until I replace it with a new one as I cannot face rebuilding it at this point in time. I like its broad support, its ease of install and use, but its becoming increasingly annoying having to disable all the enforced decisions the maintainers make, such as snap, ubuntu pro ads and so on. My fear is at some point it will not be reversible
The thing is. Snaps isn’t the first controversy.
Canonical, with Ubuntu early on was helping drive things forward, but they reached a point where they started to do things their own way with disregard to the broader ecosystem.
Each time they did this, they cause fragmentation, struggled, and then deferred to the choice the rest of the ecosystem has. The problem with this is that they’re not sharing their effort, they’re just throwing it away.
They merely doubled down hard on snaps which is the latest controversy.
Snaps have their own advantages, but Canonical owns the store. Which becomes its own stalewort
Unity is one example I cared about.
Same, I was very sad wheb they gave up in Unity8. I do check in often on the project as I felt it provided a very good mobile experience.
Since when is fragmentation a negative around here? Its part of what makes Foss great.
I think there are good kinds of fragmentation (choice and/or competition) and many bad kinds/causes of fragmentation (clinging to abandonware, reinventing the wheel, rejecting reasonable changes, “rewrite it in X-lang”, demanding complete control, style/design choices that don’t actually matter…)
It’s also part of what makes FOSS niche.
Personally I don’t consider it a con unless rampant. However in many cases they’ve dumped the projects. It is effort that could have helped along another project.
imo the negative side effect is the wasted effort and the abandonment.
Alright, fair
Packages for third party apps is the one place we don’t want fragmentation.
It’s the little things. One of my biggest gripes is that EVERY TIME you run apt update, it shoves an add for Ubuntu pro at the bottom of tge output, which shoves all the info I actually care about offscreen. Pure bullshit. It sounds small, but when I need to check which packages are getting updated, it makes my life a bit more inconvenient. And I do most things through CLI, so I see this a lot.
Shit like that has been my entire experience with Ubuntu. I deeply regret switching to it, and I’m switching off as soon as I can get another hard drive to swap in.
Why not just disable the Ubuntu pro ads in the mean time?
Well, they deserve it. A while ago, Ubuntu was a unique distribution, the ease of use was unparalleled and its popularity followed. Nevertheless, several other distros came through, capitalizing Canonical’s mistakes they catched up. Now Ubuntu is only quite relevant but the only features that make it currently unique are still controversial, i. e. snaps.
In any case, people found their space in other distributions and communities. Some others stayed with Ubuntu and they are still enjoying the popularity they achieved as a distribution for newcomers, and it does the job, really. It’s not that I think they deserve hate, but the criticisms are mostly founded without denying they have the right to make those decisions all the way.
Every time this is asked, I post the same comment. I used Kubuntu for years and liked it, but more recently they started doing things that annoyed me. The biggest was related to snaps and Firefox. Now, sandboxing a browser is probably a great idea, but I wanted to use the regular deb install, so I followed the directions to disable the snap install and used the deb. However, Ubuntu overrode that decision several times - I’d start browsing, then realize I was using a snap AGAIN. Happened a few times over a couple years. If it happened once, eh, maybe an error, but it happened 3 or 4 times. I came to the conclusion I wasn’t in control of my system, Ubuntu was.
I switched to Debian and am happy with my choice.
I had the same experience on my one gui Ubuntu machine. I also have several headless machines, and due to some shared libraries I always ended up with snapd installed even though none of the packages I was running were installed through snap. I always found it through the mount point pollution that snapd does.
Why do you care if it’s a snap or a Deb? To me the biggest problem with snap is the pollution in /dev/loop*.
Because I wanted it to integrate with 1password full client.
I use 1Password and the Firefox snap with no problems. How is the deb different?
The plugin works fine, but it can’t call the separate program if you have that installed.
In all reality it’s fine. Snaps are annoying on occasion, and the Amazon search integration was rightly riffed on, but it’ll work like anything else. Sometimes it’s just funny to riff on Ubuntu, and sometimes people hate on it because Linux people are very … er … um … opinionated. But if it works best for you then go for it.
I don’t like snaps (nor flatpaks for that matter, they’re too big for my slow internet connection here in my Greek village). But I find it absolutely, 100%, crazy to install gimp and darktable via snaps, and not being able to print (the print option is just not there, because they’re snaps and somehow they haven’t implemented that for these apps). As an artist who sells prints, this makes the whole distro completely and utterly USELESS to me. Sure, they can be found as deb packages too, but they’re older. And Firefox is also sandboxed. And when I installed Chromium from the command line as a deb, it OVERWROTE my wish, and installed Chromium as a snap too.
So, no ubuntu for me. The only advantage it has is that many third party apps (usually commercial ones) that release binary tarballs or appimages have tested with ubuntu and they usually work well (minus davinci resolve). I don’t have a big trouble with appimages as they’re generally smaller than the kde/gnome frameworks that flatpaks/snaps use, and they’re one file-delete away from getting rid of them completely. They’re just more straightforward.
And when I installed Chromium from the command line as a deb, it OVERWROTE my wish, and installed Chromium as a snap too.
This right here is my issue with Ubuntu. A huge part of Linux for me is that I am in control of my OS and machine. If I use apt to install a package, it’s because I want the .deb version. I absolutely don’t need my OS telling me “I know what you asked for, but I’m going to give you the snap version anyway”.
I could see snaps being preferred over .debs in the Software app, sure (though they shouldn’t be the only option). But replacing apps in a command line tool is garbage.
As far as the software app goes, I like how Mint handles it: it clearly marks what’s a system install and what’s a Flatpak, and if both are available it makes it easy to select which one you want. At no point does it try to hide or obfuscate it.
Absolutely, I daily drive Mint and it’s one of my favorite things about it!
Yeah, this kind of things drove me batty on Ubuntu. So many things were delivered as Snaps when they just don’t work that way. The funniest one to me was Filebot. It’s a media file naming/organizing tool…that doesn’t have disk access. Are you kidding me, Canonical?
Flatpak is easier to work with, but has similar issues. Great for simple things, but I’m always worried that at some point I’m going to need some features that just won’t work, and then it’s going to be a hassle to migrate to a native installation. And it has no CLI support.
And yeah, the bloat is wild. Deduplication on btrfs (or similar) helps but there’s no getting past the bandwidth bloat.
Yeah, i hear you. I once installed the new version of snap (and later flatpak) of the gnome ide, and it couldn’t find the vala compiler, because it was outside the sandboxing. Totally useless.
And yes, it’s bloated. Nothing works with less 1.6 gb of ram. But then again, it’s the same on fedora.
I use Fedora Workstation, and that is not the case at all. I will agree that an Arch based distro will arguably give you much more control over everything, but to compare Fedora to Ubuntu? That’s just silly.
I was talking about memory usage, not the rest of the stuff. Yes, Fedora uses as much RAM as Ubuntu.
Ah, that being the case, you’re also somewhat wrong. For the most part, Fedora actually uses a bit more RAM and resources than Ubuntu.
You have to explicitly grant permission to the disk because the app is sandboxed.
I forget the exact terminology but I tried putting it into the most permissive mode available. Is still could not work with external hard drives. This was several years ago so I can’t say what might have changed since then, but I did spend some time troubleshooting and at the time that functionality did not work. I’d read that it was possible in the previous version (maybe 18.04?)
Edit: Come to think of it, it might not have been as simple as “couldn’t access external drives”. It might have had something to do with how my disks were mounted and their permissions and mount points. I remember that I hit a wall at some point and further troubleshooting would have required more surgery on my system than I was willing to attempt.
Snaps call your atypical drive arrangement “removable media” so even if you saw it, it might have been counter intuitive. This is what you would’ve needed to run:
sudo snap connect filebot:removable-mediaSince 23.10 setting snap permissions has been easier in the gui.
That shit of installing what it wants how it wants is MicroShit behavior.
hey. unrelated question, sorry. do any greeks still worship the olympians?
No, they’re all orthodox christians now
Thanks for giving me a shot at a woke moment now
That was racist. There is nothing wrong with worshiping Olympian gods. You are a right-wing-conservative-republican-christian-homophobic-misogonistic-white-supremacist-rapper-patriarch.
Lol, I honestly don’t know how woke people manage to find all this crap on any comments, and you just saw me try 🤣🤣🤣
What sort of printers do you make your prints with? And do you print directly from GIMP or from something else? I’ve been trying to set up a FOSS printing workflow using Canon giclee printers, which has been mostly successful but I haven’t yet figured out how to print custom sizes on roll paper, only standard sizes on sheet paper.
I use sheet paper to be honest on an Epson printer. I do use Gimp to print, although most of my editing is happening on Photopea in the browser (gimp didn’t cut it for me as an editor for my paintings, I needed adjustment layers and Secondary Colors). Then, I export a JPEG, and print from Gimp (because the browser doesn’t have all the printing options that gimp has). I use the Debian-Testing rolling release.
The thing with Ubuntu / Canonical isn’t that it doesn’t work, it is that they’ve bad policies and by using their stuff you’re making yourself vulnerable to something akin to what happened with VMWare ESXi or with CentOS licensing - they may change their mind at some point and you’ll be left with a pile of machines and little to no time to move to other solution.
For starters Ubuntu is the only serious and corporate-backed distribution to ever release a major version on the website and have the ISO installer broken for a few days.
Ubuntu’s kernel is also a dumpster fire of hacks waiting for someone upstream to implement things properly so they can backport them and ditch their own implementations. We’ve seen this multiple times, shiftfs vs VFS idmap shifting is a great example of the issue.
Canonical has contributing to open-source for a long time, but have you heard about what happened with LXD/LXC? LXC was made with significant investments, primarily from IBM and Canonical. LXD was later developed as an independent project under the Linux Containers umbrella, also funded by Canonical. Everything seemed to be progressing well until last year when Canonical announced that LXD would no longer remain an independent project. They removed it from the Linux Containers project and brought it under in-house development.
They effectively took control of the codebase, changed repositories, relicensed previous contributions under a more restrictive license. To complicate matters, they required all contributors to sign a contract with new limitations and impositions. This shift has caused concerns, but most importantly LXD became essentially a closed-off in-house project of Canonical.
Some people may be annoyed at Snaps as well but I won’t get into that.
Just wanted to add something for future reference of anyone reading your post: after Canonical did this, LXD was forked by Linux Containers into a new project named Incus.
Yeah, Incus FTW!!
Moved from Gentoo to Ubuntu in 2008 as I needed to focus more on my job, moved back to Gentoo in 2022. Snaps were part of it, but really the lack of maintenance and vision around the apt repository was really the issue. More and more I was installing stray debs, or having to use flatpaks / AppImages for what what I wanted the system to manage for me.
Not that I’ve entirely stopped using flatpaks or AppImages, but the process of creating an ebuild is far simpler than trying to do anything with a deb. For a while I had hope about the ppa, however that became fewer and fewer. I do think that the battle to have a comprehensive software repository is a loosing one because of the way things are currently structured.
I use arch btw
Ubuntu isn’t terrible, there are just bad things on Ubuntu that aren’t present in other distros.
Yeah I don’t hate Ubuntu, I used it as my daily driver for years, but it did get a bit frustrating how they seem to fixate on the new ‘shiny’ thing (Unity, Mir, the whole convergent desktop thing, now Snaps) and chase after it while other things are left to stagnate, then they seem to get it to where it’s almost good, then drop it and go chasing off after something else.
Also, I find that these days there are just better options for a ‘just works’ kind of distro (like Mint or Pop!OS) so I don’t hate Ubuntu, I just have no particular need for it anymore.
